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Js Co) prom nu tweCexemcone(sr)pyVI mK) Mm Goyuce pr lalanlt

A CANCER patient had to be flown by helicopter from Cork to visit Pas- chal Carmody’s clinic in Killaloe, as she was too ill to travel by road.

Noel O’Connor told the trial on Thursday that his sister Mary (46) had lived in Surrey with her two daughters, in 2002.

He said that she was diagnosed with a serious tumor in her chest, in February 2002. Her family then relo- cated her and her daughters to Cork.

Mr O’Connor said a general prac- titioner in Cork referred him to Pas- chal Carmody, to help his sister.

‘He (Mr Carmody) indicated there was a particular treatment he could administer, that could be of help to

my sister. He indicated it was photo- dynamic,” he said.

He said that they travelled by heli- copter to Killaloe in March, two or three weeks after the initial contact was made. “She travelled by helicop- ter from Farren. Mary was unable to travel any distance by car. She was too ull,” he said.

He said he paid £2,000 to Gaelic Helicopters and the helicopter landed in the GAA pitch in Killaloe, from where Mary was driven the 300-yard distance to the clinic.

Mary returned to the clinic the fol- lowing day for photodynamic treat- ment.

‘“‘He was very positive about the treatment. I got the impression the treatment could be of benefit to

Mary,” said Mr O’Connor.

He said he personally felt very posi- tive and Mary was “extremely happy that something was being done for her.’ Mr O’Connor paid €7,500 for the treatment that day.

He said he had expected “several follow-ups but there was no follow- up at that time.”

After they returned to Cork, his sister’s condition “quite rapidly di- simproved.” Within four days, she was moved to Marymount Hospice in Cork, and died on May 6, 2002.

Under cross-examination by Pat Marrinan, SC, representing Mr Carmody, Mr O’Connor said, “We would have done whatever needed to be done, photodynamic treatment or chemo, or whatever.”

Mr Marrinan said his client was “somewhat taken aback when a helicopter arrived in the local GAA pitch.”

Mr O’Connor said he had indicated that he would have to fly his sister there, because she was so ill. How- ever Mr Marrinan said his client was adamant he hadn’t been aware of this and was surprised when the helicop- ter arrived.

“He also takes serious issue with what happened at the clinic. He saw your sister and saw that she was very unwell. He spoke to you and said this treatment wasn’t suitable for your sister, she was so unwell,” said Mr Marrinan.

Mr O’Connor replied, “No, that’s untrue. I don’t remember any indi-

cation that she wasn’t going to be treated.”

Mr Marrinan put it to the witness that he had gone to “extraordinary” lengths to transport his sister to Kil- laloe and was “insistent” that she be treated, but he denied this.

“All I was trying to do was save my sister. All I was interested in doing was saving her life,” he said.

Mr Marrinan told the court that Dr Porter, who administered the treat- ment, was no longer in the jurisdic- tion. “He has left the country,” he revealed.

Mr Marrinan asked the witness did Mr Carmody promise him that his sister would be cured. He replied, “He never said that she would be cured. There were no guarantees.”

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Judge says case cant be decided on sympathy

THE photodynamic treatment given to six cancer patients was inappro- priate, according to the Prosecution.

Presenting the State’s case to the jury at the outset, Senior Counsel Denis Vaughan-Buckley said, “It’s the Prosecution’s case that there will be ample evidence that the accused is guilty of all counts.”

“It’s the State’s case that the patients were all suffering from terminal can- cer when they went to the East Clin- ic. They all subsequently died. The medical director of that clinic was the accused, Mr Carmody,” he told Ennis Circuit Court.

“The photodynamic treatment that was given to patients suffering from deep-rooted cancer was inappropri- ate,” he added.

He said that each of the 25 charges is “a separate trial in reality.”

Paschal Carmody (60), of Bally- cuggaran, Killaloe, County Clare, has pleaded not guilty to 25 charges of deception – relating to six cancer patients and their relatives – between September 2001 and October 2002.

It is alleged that he defrauded six cancer patients and their relatives of more than €80,000. According to the State, he falsely pretended the patients’ cancer would be cured by photodynamic therapy.

Mr Vaughan-Buckley gave an out- line of the details surrounding the cancer suffered by each of the six OTOL

He warned the jury, “this is a case where you couldn’t but be human and have sympathy for all the patients who died and all their next of kin

and relatives, likewise Mr Carmody, who is on trial on very serious charg- es. But you don’t decide the case on sympathy. You decide the case on the evidence before you.”

He said that seven of the charges re- late to Conor O’Sullivan from Gorey, who died just weeks short of his 16th birthday, on November 13, 2002.

He said that Conor’s parents, Derek and Christina, paid more than €9,000 to the clinic, after being told in May of that year that the boy had just six months to live.

Conor received photodynamic treatment at the clinic in July 2002, oLUUON (LOM LPR MONONOKE Ke

Another patient, John James Gal- lagher, from Mullingar, County Westmeath, died from cancer of the liver on September 6, 2002.

He said it will be alleged Dr Car-

mody described photodynamic treat- ment to him as “magic”, in January 2002, and referred to chemotherapy as “barbaric.”

Another patient, John Sheridan (58), from Kells, County Kilkenny, died on November 2, 2002, having been diagnosed with cancer of the liver the previous year.

“Dr Carmody told them (his fam- ily) John was a strong man and was suitable for photodynamic _ treat- ment,” said Counsel.

The treatment was carried out and Mr Sheridan believed Dr Carmody would cure him. However, he died at home.

A fourth patient, Mary O’Connor, moved home from Surrey to her na- tive County Cork, having been diag- nosed with lung cancer in February PAU OPA

Her photodynamic treatment com- menced on March 12, 2002, but she died on May 6.

Another woman, Josephine Dur- kan, of Beechgrove, Lucan, County Dublin, was diagnosed with lung cancer in May 2000. Her husband Kieran was told by her doctor in Feb- ruary 2002 that she had only weeks to live. She went to the East Clinic in Killaloe in March, where she re- ceived photodynamic treatment, but died on April 22, 2002.

Karen Kurvink from Holland, was diagnosed with breast cancer in Au- gust 2002 and received photodynam- ic treatment at East Clinic that Octo- ber, but died the following May.

The trial, before Judge Rory Mc- Cabe and a jury of nine men and three women, 1s expected to last four weeks.

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Patient told of treatment ‘like magic’

THE widow of a man who died from cancer said she felt cheated by the doctors at the Killaloe clinic where he received photodynamic therapy.

Bernadette Gallagher, from Mull- ingar, Co Westmeath, lost her hus- band John James through cancer of the liver, in September 2002.

He underwent photodynamic treat- ment at Mr Carmody’s clinic in Kil- laloe, in February of that year.

In court last Friday, Mrs Gallagher repeatedly broke down in the witness stand as she described how she felt that herself, her husband and their three children were “cheated and lied to” by Mr Carmody and Dr William Porter, who administered the treat- ment.

She said that Mr Carmody told them he was opposed to chemothera- py as it was “barbaric.”

Instead, he recommended photo- dynamic treatment, which, he said, was suitable for all types of cancer and would destroy her husband’s cancer. They paid €14,000 for the treatment.

She said Mr Carmody told her hus- band the treatment was ‘just like magic’ and they thought it was too good to be true.

Mrs Gallagher said that Paschal Carmody told her husband it was his mission in life to find a cure for cancer.

She said that her husband com- plained of loss of appetite and loss of energy in July 2000, which was unu- sual as “he had never missed a day from work over illness.”

He was initially told it was down to gastroenteritis, an ulcer or his gall bladder, but went for a second opin- ion in London.

There, it was discovered he had a large tumor in the stomach and also a problem with his liver. In Septem- ber 2000, his stomach, spleen, pan- creas and one-third of his liver were removed. That December, he got the all-clear, but after Christmas, he got lumps under his arm.

In January 2001, he started chemo- therapy and again got the all-clear that May. In November 2001, it was

revealed that the cancer had returned to the liver and the chemotherapy was resumed.

She said she visited Dr Paschal Carmody in January 2002, having herself been diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome. Whilst there, she said she mentioned her husband’s ill- ness to Dr Carmody.

“He went on to tell me it was a shame he hadn’t come to him be- cause they had hit on a miraculous or magic cure.

“He was totally against chemother- apy. He said if any member of his family had cancer in the morning, he wouldn’t let them have chemothera- py, as it was barbaric and killed all the good cells,” she said.

She said her husband was out in the car and Dr Carmody “opened the door and invited” him in.

“T was excited. Dr Carmody started to explain to my husband about the photodynamic treatment.

‘He said it was his mission in life to find a cure for the people of Ireland, the people who suffered from cancer. My husband said, ‘Surely my cancer is too severe’. He said it was suitable for all cancer,” she said.

“My husband said, ‘It sounds like magic.’ Dr Carmody laughed and said, “Yes, just like magic.’ We thought it was too good to be true,” she said.

“We were ecstatic. We couldn’t be- lieve what we had hit on. I had for- gotten why I went there. I’d forgotten it was about me,” she said.

“J (her husband) said, ‘Imagine we ve found it and we weren’t even looking for it.. He used to pray a lot. He thought it was his prayers answered. J couldn’t wait to tell the kids,’ she said.

She said her husband was given herbal remedies to build up his im- mune system and was on 66 tablets a day.

“He didn’t call them tablets. He called them bullets, they were so big,” she said.

She said their daughter Lisa, who was nine or 10 at the time, asked Dr Carmody, “You’re not going to hurt my dad” and he said “No.”

Their son Tecwen, now 23, asked Dr Carmody would he keep his dad’s cancer at bay. She said he replied, ‘“We’re not alone going to be able to hold it at bay, we’re going to destroy it. Aren’t we Bill?”

“Bill Porter replied, “Yes’,’ she said.

She said after her husband under- went the treatment in February 2002, the tablets were making him very ill. She phoned Dr Carmody and he ad- vised her to open up the capsules and put them into a milkshake, but that made ‘J’ even more ill.

She said her husband began to spit up “black. It was almost gooey. I rang Dr Porter. He was excited over

the phone. He said it was the cancer dispersing. My kids were so excited and so was my husband and every time it happened he told us ‘I got rid of more of it’,’ she said.

On February 18, 2002, she said they returned to Killaloe, where “Dr Por- ter said to us that he was clear, that my husband was clear of cancer.”

Senior Counsel for the Prosecution, Denis Vaughan-Buckley asked her did he mean “Cured?” and she re- plied, “Yes.”

Her husband had been due to attend the Mater for his fourth session of chemotherapy around this time, but cancelled it.

However, a CT scan in London on March 6, 2002, revealed that the can- cer had not gone.

“It was slightly larger than what it was in the previous scan. The doctor could see large quantities of herbal remedies in the lower bowel,” she nee

Her husband phoned her from Lon- don and said, ‘It’s back. It’s not gone. It’s lies.’

‘I was so angry I got through to the East Clinic. Carmody was not avail- able. I spoke to Dr Porter. I called him, I’m sorry, a lying bastard, that he didn’t know what he had done to my family. I said, “Stop making false promises to people’,” she said.

‘He said, “You know, Mrs Gallagh- er, it works on some people but not on everybody.’ I said, “Why did you tell us it would work. You are one bastard, you didn’t say that when you were taking his money’,” she said.

Asked by defence counsel Pat Mar- rinan did she bear a great deal of animosity towards Drs Carmody and Porter, she replied, “I feel cheated, I feel my husband and my children were cheated. What provoked me into making the phone call was hear- ing my husband’s voice in London and hearing he was upset. Both of them lied to me.”

Mr Marrinan’s cross-examination is due to resume today, ‘Tuesday.

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Doolin punches above its weight

IF Irish tourism was a boxing match, Doolin would be a flyweight – stand- ing toe to toe 1n a ring of big bruisers – giving much better than it got.

The story of Doolin is the story of the little town that could. The beautt- ful, but tiny, fishing village, sat right on Ireland’s last outpost before the Atlantic, that somehow became the centre of the world.

That world, of course, is the world of traditional music. While the last of the Doolin gealgoirs were dying out on the late 1930s, a new cultural movement was starting to take hold.

Singing, dancing and story telling had always formed the very fabric of this proud community, and this musical and cultural richness finally began to be recognised when Sea- mus O Duillearga began to record the local talent for the Irish Folklore Commission.

It would take another 30 years how- ever for these centuries old seed to truly come home to roost in Doolin.

Born and bred in the shadow of

Doonagore, the Russell’s were a family on a mission. Men of destiny – brothers in talent – Packie, Gus- sie and Micho first gave Irish tradi- tional music back to the Irish, and then delivered it, gift wrapped, to the (eye b

Almost overnight Doolin was trans- formed – the cobwebs brushed away the village began to claim its posi- tion as a Mecca for musicians from all over the world.

They came from German, Holland and France, bringing with them a new since of vitality and energy than transformed the western seaboard from Kinvara right down to Quilty. The came for the music, but they stayed for the people.

But Doolin is many things to many people. From the lively to the tran- quil; Doolin is as much about walk- ing the Cliffs of Moher or touring the archaeology of the Burren as is it about caving or scuba diving. It’s as much about exploring Pol an Ionain as it 1s about trying your hand at a spot of sea angling.

Doolin is the village that could.

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HSE hires consultants to stop Ennis superbug

THE Health Service Executive (HSE) has hired two temporary consult- ants in response to the concerns of a consultant microbiologist that Ennis General Hospital was at further risk from a C-difficile outbreak.

The HSE revealed in April that 21 patients who contracted the superbug at the hospital in 2007 had died last year.

Records released to The Clare Peo- ple through the Freedom of Infor- mation Act show that the Limerick-

based HSE consultant microbiologist, Dr Nuala O’Connell, wrote to Ennis hospital manager John O’Connell on April 9 to express her concerns.

‘“T am frustrated and deeply disap- pointed from a patient care point of view that neither the second consult- ant microbiologist sanctioned by the A&E initiative nor the recruitment of an infectious disease consultant has progressed,’ she wrote.

“Investment is needed in both hu- man resources for the acute and community settings, plus in newer diagnostic technologies, to provide

timely results, to enhance microbi- ology and infection control and pre- vention service provision to 24/7 365 days a year. HSE management needs to address same as a matter of urgen- cy to prevent further incidents of this nature from occurring.”

In response, a HSE spokesman said that a temporary consultant micro- biologist was providing two sessions per week at Ennis and a temporary consultant in infectious disease had sO MUIKC mI MIIoEe.e

Dr O’Connell made her comments in a reply to a letter from Mr Doyle

who raised what he said was a ser1- ous anomaly in the system whereby the infection control team was not notified of C-diff cases until several days after detection via computer.

Mr Doyle said: “I feel that this prac- tice creates a significant risk and may lend itself to an adverse event for the index case and onward transmission to other patients and request direc- tion notification by phone of infec- tion control.”

In response, Dr O’Connell said that the infection control queue for the in- fection control and prevention nurses

(ICPN) at Ennis was updated imme- diately when a C-diff result become available.

‘The result doesn’t even await full authorisation by either a senior scien- tist or me,” she said.

‘The lab invests much time in tele- phoning wards with important results across the network. I suggest that the wards take ownership of their results and communicate same to the ICPN so that a culture of infection control by all disciplines is engendered as it is, after all, everyone’s responsibil- AA

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Minister ‘ignorant’ of school needs

THE Chairman of the Board of Man- agement of Ennis National School has said that the Government has closed its eyes on overcrowding at the school by putting on hold a new building for the 664 children and 52 EIGER ‘At the start of the school year we applied for and got funding for two teachers – one for resource and one for language,” said David Casey. “We applied for accommodation for those two teachers and our ap- plication for funding was refused. We were told by the department in May that we hadn’t shown we had

an accommodation need for them,” ntemcy- Bee

“Now look around and you will see 16 prefabs, which to me look like an accommodation need,’ he told parents as, in protest, they took their children from the school to the streets of Ennis last Wednesday.

Mr Casey said that junior education minister Sean Haughey had argued that the teachers should either use the library or the hall. Now the library has for the last eight years been used as a full time class room for special needs, and the halla is in constant use between the classes, the choir, and the school teams. It shows complete ignorance and lack of understanding

and arrogance for anyone to tell any- one in Ennis National School to use the halla to teach your children,’ said Mr Casey.

The head of the Irish National Teachers Organisation, Declan Kel- leher, told the protest that it was “in- excusable” that the Department of Education had failed to live up to a basic responsibility.

“Nine years ago the department acknowledged that a new 24 teacher school needed to be built. Nine years later the junior infants of that era have finished their first year in post primary schools. That generation of children have been let down by a process that simply devalues primary

education and promotes the concept that these are only children between four and 12 and that they don’t really count,” said Mr Kelleher, who previ- ously taught at the school.

“Even from an economic point of view the scandal of wasting funds on short term economics by providing totally unsuitable wooden boxes for classrooms are a form of madness. It’s certainly understandable that if a school has short term accommoda- tion needs then a prefab may answer the demands for a year or so, but the provision of 16 prefabs over a nine year period and longer is testament to total state neglect as well as a complete lack of forward planning.”

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Parents fury at ‘third world conditions

HEALTHY children as young as six have been struck down with pneumo- nia due to “third world” conditions in an Ennis National School.

Parent and member of the Board of Management Dr Aine Ni Riain stressed that the parents were not by nature a militant body of people, but they had genuine concerns for the health and safety of their children.

“This is not about a fancy looking school, this is about a school that is safe enough for children to attend,” she said.

“The building itself is grossly out- dated, it smells of damp, the clothes the children wear have to be washed because if you leave clothes in a bag overnight the smell of mould and wet that comes with it in the morning is quite disgusting,’ she said.

“My son has had pneumonia in this school, a young healthy boy along with a number of his class. They would not have got pneumonia in a different situation,’ said Dr Ni Riain, a medical practitioner. At the time the children were in senior infants.

“If we were a small company we would have been long since shut

down. I think it is disingenuous of the Government to close down small companies on the grounds of health and safety, and allow 664 children and staff to be educated in conditions that are grossly substandard and bor- derline third world,’ she said.

The parents have a number of con- cerns about the school that was con- demned by the Health and Safety Authority in 2003. It is now situated on a very busy junction, making the task of transporting the 664 children to and from school very dangerous.

It is a disaster waiting to happen ac- cording to Dr Ni Riain,

The cars of 52 staff members also have to be accommodated, minimis- ing the space for children to play.

She pointed out that access to the prefabs was by stairs which were slippery on wet days.

“We have a number of children with special needs for whom ramps have had to be built and even those aren’t safe. There is safety concerns for access to the building in all sorts of conditions across the yard,” she Crate

The parents stressed that Wednes- day’s protest was the first of many measures.

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New healthcare model for CULT (ecacwemeleuenm@elns

TREATING more people in the community was the aim behind a new concept in health care unveiled by the HSE in Clare on Monday.

The North Clare Primary Care Team will provide GP Practice serv- ices, community nursing, physiother- apy, occupational therapy, speech and language therapy services, commu- nity welfare, home help and extend- ed services such as dietetics, dental, podiatry and school health service to approximately 7,000 people.

“One of the major problems in the past with primary care was the frag- mentation of services. Now for the first time a conscious and ongoing ef- fort is being made to deliver primary care to the people of north Clare on a joined up basis,” said the chairman of the team, Dr Fergus Glynn.

“One particular issue for us in this part of north Clare is the high number

of elderly people, particularly those Uhvaustear-Dleyatee

“One of the principle aims is to support older people in health and ill health to live fulfilled lives within their community,’ he said.

According to the HSE, the focus of the health service and its develop- ments has traditionally been around the hospital system. But now there is recognition that primary care serv- ices can meet 90 to 95 per cent of all health and personal social service needs and lead to better outcomes, better health status and better cost- CIBC AL od Nhe

The service will be spread over a geographical area of 550 square kilometres in north Clare to include Corofin, Lisdoonvarna, Kilfenora and Ballyvaughan, Kilnaboy, Car- ron, Boston and Doolin.

The primary care team will provide a strengthened primary care system in the north Clare area, which will

play a more central role as the first and ongoing point of contact for cli- ents within the health-care system.

It will aim to provide an integrat- ed, inter-disciplinary, high-qual- ity, team-based and _ user-friendly set of services for the client and an enhanced capacity for primary care in the areas of disease prevention, rehabilitation and personal social services to complement the existing diagnosis and treatment focus.

The members of the North Clare Primary Care team are based in a number of locations at present, the new Ballyvaughan Primary Care Centre, Lisdoonvarna Health Centre and Corofin Medical Centre. Addi- tional staff have been appointed to support the team including a physio- therapist, a registered nurse, a speech and language therapist, an occupa- tional therapist and other staff, in- cluding a dietician, to support more than one team.

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Plenty of visitors but fewer jobs

THE high number of foreign compa- nies visiting the Shannon Free Zone with a view to investing there has failed to prevent a steady decline in jobs over the past four years.

Figures released by the Tanaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Mary Coughlan, yesterday show that overall 251 jobs have been lost in the zone.

In 2007, the zone suffered a net loss of 131 jobs. This trend is set to con- tinue this year with yesterday’s con- firmation that Avocent International is to shed 64 jobs.

Last year Shannon Development brought 14 potential investors to visit the free zone. In contrast IDA at- tracted only three.

Shannon Development’s tally is up three from that in 2006. However, it is down on the 22 potential investors that visited the zone in 2005 and the 17 who visited in 2004.

In the years 2003 to 2007, potential investors made some 88 “business itineraries’. In the same period, the number of IDA itineraries in Clare was 16.

The figures show that the worst year for redundancies in the free zone was 2005 when 739 jobs were lost, while 485 jobs were lost last year.

The figures show that 354 jobs were created in the zone last year.

Shannon Development is due to shortly publish its masterplan in re- lation to a revamped Shannon Free Zone. Clir Brian Meaney (GP) said that the agency needed to be creative and innovative.

‘High labour costs are resulting in companies relocating jobs overseas and Shannon Development needs to create the spirit of the 1960s with the establishment of the Free Zone and other innovative ideas.

“The figures also confirm that it would have been the height of folly by the Government to withdraw the responsibility for promoting the free zone from Shannon Development and giving it to the IDA.

“The figures show that the IDA doesn’t have any real interest in pro- moting industry in rural Clare or in Ennis and the number of itineraries brought by Shannon Development to the Free Zone in recent years points up the poor IDA performance in Clare,’ Cllr Meaney concluded.

A recent county by county survey confirmed that Clare came 19th of the 26 counties in IDA jobs created for 2007. The figures supplied by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment show that 22 jobs were created in IDA companies last year.

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Howard sought to hire personal bodyguard

ROBERT Howard phoned a secu- rity firm in a nervous disposition and asked for personal security, claiming that he had been threatened.

The director of an Ennis-based se- curity firm, Kevin Cooper told the court yesterday that Robert phoned him on September 26, 2006, asking for him to provide security for him.

Mr Cooper, who provides security to homes and businesses, said, “He rang me in the evening time, ask- ing me if I could supply him with security, personal security. He said he’d been threatened. I said, ‘Ya.’ He

sounded urgent,” he said.

He said that Mr Howard asked to meet him the following day and they met at the Howards’ family business at Westgate Business Park in Ennis.

“He said, ‘I just want someone to be around me and mind me. Someone made a threat.’ He said that the offic- es had been broken into. He seemed very nervous,’ said Mr Cooper.

However, he said that Mr Howard did not follow up on it. He never con- tacted me again after that,” he said.

The court also heard yesterday from an employee of the Howards, who said that PJ had a temper.

Dan Fitzgerald, who provides gen-

eral maintenance and support to the Howard family business, agreed with counsel for Sharon Collins, Michael Bowman, BL, that PJ had a “bit of a temper’ and was someone you “wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of”.

He also agreed that PJ was a “par- ticular man, with exacting stand- ards” and who took pride in his be- longings.

Mr Bowman put it to him that a cabinet had been damaged at Bal- lybeg House, at a party that Sharon Collins’ two sons Gary and David had hosted in August or September 2006.

Mr Fitzgerald agreed that Sharon was concerned about the damage and had made several attempts to get it repaired, prior to PJ returning home from Spain.

The witness also agreed that PJ still spends much of his time in Spain, while Robert has moved back into the family home, Ballybeg House.

Mr Bowman put it to Mr Fitzgerald that Sharon would say that house was too big and he agreed. “Yes, some- times she would say the house was too big,” he said.

Another witness, Gerard O’Donoghue — a company direc- tor with Ennis-based computer firm

Boots Systems Ltd — told the court that Sharon Collins grasped the workings of computers, but wasn’t competent on the technical side.

He said he went to the Downes and Howard business in Ennis on May 11, 2006, on foot of a request from Sharon Collins. He said that she wanted to be able to view documents pertaining to the business, while she was in Spain.

“T installed ftp (file transfer proto- col) so there would be two identical copies, so she could access it in Spain and Niall and Robert (could access the same information) in the office at the same time,’ he told the court.